How Are You Going To Fall In Love? Conversation With Heraa Hashmi
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Whenever I have held a Muslim marriage masterclass, my inbox has been flooded with questions from single Muslimahs. Some women feel scared at the thought of getting married. Others have heard too many Muslim marriage horror stories and are seriously considering staying single.
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Podcast Notes
Introduction
Welcome to Smart Muslima Podcast. Inshallah, if you find this podcast episode useful, please subscribe and tell your friends and family about Smart Muslima. Also, good news, I have a newsletter and that's how we can stay in touch. To subscribe, please go to smartmuslima.com details are also in the podcast notes. In the newsletter, I'll be sharing my book recommendations, productivity tips, and online courses that I've created and also information about a new book that I'm writing called Smart Single Muslima Inshallah, it will help you to transform the way you approach love and relationships.
Farhat Amin 01:01
Assalamu Alaikum and welcome back to Smart Muslima. If you're new here, my name is Farhat Amin, I'm your host and in today's episode, we will be exploring the question of how are you going to fall in love? So, this is a discussion for adults. So, if there are any kids around who can hear, I would suggest that you either put your headphones on or listen to this later on when they're not around Inshallah. So, okay, now growing up in the UK and the US, we all know but I think we can all safely say this, that we are drip fed a particular narrative when it comes to marriage. So, when it comes to love as well as the majority of books if you think of fairy tales that we read, cartoons are not just Disney that's like all kinds of cartoons that we watched when we were little, TV shows, and the movies.
There's one main message that's coming across and it basically goes something like this where at some point you meet someone that could be at high school that can be in college and you get to know them and the way that you get to know them is that you go on dates, you text each other, you flirt in the office, that's the way it’s all shown to us and then once you've got to know that person, after a few years preferably, you can get married. Now, that's how we are told we should fall in love and the thing is this is what happens mainly in liberal secular societies. I'm not sure what it's like in the Muslim world, I wasn't raised there. But that seems to be the only acceptable option that's on the menu when it comes to love and relationships and interestingly, as we now know, you don't even need to get married anymore, to just live with your partners, okay. And then also having same-sex relationships now that's become cool as well.
So, that's what we're being told or become ingrained into our psyche and on top of that, the worst mistake a woman can make is that you marry the first guy that you like, or you rush into something because there's this idea that somehow you need to have all this experience and have many boyfriends and then somehow, you're going to be able to choose. That's what we are being told as Muslim women, we're living in this society that's telling us this. I think we should stop and pause and test the validity of that narrative and So, Alhamdulillah I have a sister here today guest Mashallah her name is Heera Hashmi. She's 23 years old. She's graduated in Molecular Biology and she's currently working in research based out of the Bay Area that's in the US, she also serves as a marketing director for Traversing Tradition and her interests include Islamic sciences, linguistics, and bioethics. Now, Heera recently got married, she's pretty qualified to talk about the subject of love and marriage. So, Assalamu Alaikum Heera.
Heera Hashmi 04:20
Waallaikum Assalam, how are you?
Farhat Amin 04:22
Alhamdulillah, I am well. How are you today?
Heera Hashmi 04:25
I'm doing well Alhamdulillah. Thank you for having me on.
Farhat Amin 04:29
Can you please tell us a bit about Traversing Tradition before we get on to the podcast topic?
Heera Hashmi 04:34
Yeah, of course. Traversing Tradition is an online publication where we look at issues surrounding the modern world, modernity, liberalism, secularism and really trying to dismantle its symptoms through an Islamic framework, Inshallah, that's our intention. So, we hope to work with people around the world looking at everything from politics, representation to new liberalism, to philosophy. So, do check it out if you're interested in any of those topics.
Farhat Amin 05:06
So, basically, there are articles about those subjects that that's what you can find on the website.
Heera Hashmi 05:12
Yes.
Farhat Amin 05:15
Why did traversing tradition even start?
Heera Hashmi 05:21
So, it started when there was a group of us that kind of met each other online, and we were having a lot of these discussions informally on social media. I was in college at the time. So, I was getting to a point where I was really becoming disillusioned by a lot of the promises that feminism, liberalism, secularism was making and I wanted to find a way to really explore more and to understand what it means to be a Muslim in the modern world and when we realized that these discussions were happening and there are more people than we thought that were interested in this, we decided to kind of formalize it and make a platform where Muslims could come and have these discussions in a very polite but critical manner. Being a part of that journey, honestly, has very helped. It has helped a lot with my own spirituality and understanding of Allah swt and just trying to navigate today's world with a sense of dignity, with a sense of Izza, and just belief in Allah (swt).
Farhat Amin 06:30
Yes, that's traversingtradition.com Inshallah, that's where we can, you can find out more. So, you heard what I said at the beginning. Do you agree that young women, to be honest, Muslim or non-Muslim, really, we are being bombarded with this one particular narrative about love?
Heera Hashmi 06:56
Yes, I agree with this. When I was in university, one of the biggest gripes I had was this kind of boss girl attitude or narrative, we were being served that women can do everything and you can be a career woman and then you can also have a family but that's kind of left for later. That's kind of an afterthought and for me, I knew that I wanted to pursue further education, I knew that I was someone that really wanted to continue studying but at the same time I didn't like having to feel like I had to sacrifice family and motherhood for it and that was something that I realized pretty quickly that a lot of young women around me are feeling a little bit of the same way that pressure of, you know, okay, we need to continue this career thing but we need to follow this path at all costs and finding a good brother and starting a family.
Those are things that can be overlooked and it's kind of like an afterthought. We'll just do anything. Your kind of defined by the number of men who come after you, you just kind of mess around and then the serious thing will come later and that sounds like something only the brothers face this idea of we are just messing around but the sisters also feel a little bit of this pressure of like, "Oh, this girl is dating this person." So, I need to have someone just as a side thing. While I focus on my career.
Farhat Amin 08:38
Alhamdulillah, you chose not to do that. After you graduated, you then got married at the age of 21 and would you say is that a common choice that young Muslim women will take or is that slightly unusual?
Heera Hashmi 08:54
In my context, it was slightly unusual and there's a good reason for it, there's a little bit of concern on ensuring that women finish their education and they're able to complete it. My dad was very much an advocate for you want to, yes, Inshallah, one day, you'll have a family and you'll have a husband to depend on but I want you to be able to have your own education and stand up on your own two feet if need be and in our community that's the route that people take is usually waiting until after you graduate and work for a little while and then once you're in your mid-20s or late 20s, that's when people start to look to get married and for me, I didn't want to put it off because it is difficult in today's society to avoid the fitnah and not fall into this environment of dating and casual interaction with the opposite gender and I also wanted, I had this mindset of I want to grow with someone, I don't want to wait until I'm done growing and arguably, that never happens, right? This idea of we have to be at our best before we start to look for someone. I wanted to marry someone that I could grow with, that we could support each other in our ambitions with and so, that's why I started looking quite early on or my family did.
Farhat Amin 10:30
Yeah, it's interesting that and we'll talk about this a bit more than a second later about, there seems to be a roadmap we have within Muslim families, there seems to be set times when this is when you should get a degree, this is when you should get a job and this is when you should get married and some boxes that have to be ticked. But now, the thing is that on university campuses and in colleges, the atmosphere there is really geared towards dating and so, it's such an easy option for Muslims to choose as well and So, did you find that what Muslim men and women were choosing to do?
Heera Hashmi 11:17
Yeah, I don't like to perpetuate this idea. Our parents don't understand XYZ. But I do think this is one area where there is a little bit of disconnect. Our age is very unique, the age of globalization, optimization. We don't have the tribal network ties that people would normally have in terms of looking for a spouse and then on top of that, you're in an environment that's very sexualized, where almost everyone around you has had sexual relations multiple times. On top of that depression, loneliness, is that an all-time high? So, when you look at all of these factors, it's like, you're moving against the tide to reject that and to want to stick to Islamic principles.
Farhat Amin 12:13
Yeah, that is I know, I think no one's criticizing parents for not understanding just basically the environment that their kids are studying in because it's interesting going to college in high school, it's not just about learning, is it. You're not just learning math and science, there are ideas that you mentioned that Traverse and Traditions tackles that are also being taught in schools. So, for example, young Muslim girls who are at high school or university, what is it that she is being told as far as her life and kind of ideas that are alien to Islam.
Heera Hashmi 13:02
In high school, it was interesting because one of the biggest issues I noticed in myself and others facing was when it came to beauty and I think when you're in those peak years of adolescence and you're starting to learn about romance and relationships, the biggest gripe that I have with the western dating standards, it is so, hyper sexualized, and you learn to inculcate this idea of my worth and self-value is really dependent on how many guys I can attract and how beautiful I look and this led, you know, some people to taking off the hijab or even if they didn't believe and wanted to stick to some principles, they felt like they had to lower them in order to attract a man and it became this self-destructive cycle that really just upsetting to look at when you see these young girls who have so, much potential but these pressures and the peer pressure and all these factors where they feel like they have to give up their Islam in order to live among their peers.
Farhat Amin 14:11
I'm not even thinking about hijab to be honest because of the way that I see it now...... because I used to work in high schools and you are at that age conscious of fitting in and they don't want to be the odd one out. Girls will change the way they look the way they behave and you read studies about how non-Muslim girls will sleep with guys when they don't want to or they will do certain acts. They don't want to but if it means keeping their boyfriend, they will do those things and So, it's only inevitable that Muslim girls will do that as well but then they're not respected at all once the guys get what they want, they just don't then that's what happens and that's your right. That's the tragic part of it.
Heera Hashmi 15:11
Yeah, they're left with lingering promises. I can't count how many times I've heard of a situation where a sister was told that "I'm serious, I'm going to come to your parents." And it never happens and once the guy gets what he wants, he leaves and you're left with heartbreak, you're left with just a tragedy. I think you put it perfectly when you said it's tragic, honestly.
Farhat Amin 15:41
But now this is the lie, is it not. That is the reality we just described that is what really happens but the way it's painted and presented is so, disingenuous and that's what really annoys me that the girls are being given this kind of, like, sparkly fairy tale, this is how a guy will come to your house and Bollywood's just as bad as Hollywood, if not worse for Asian looking girls should I say? So, I'm thinking when some young girls are looking at what their options are. They then think, well, I don't want to have an arranged marriage. And they're thinking and I've heard girls say this to me that, but how are we supposed to then get to know a guy who I want to know, the only way, the only option I have is to date them.
Heera Hashmi 16:39
Yeah. SubhanAllah I just had a friend who I spoke with recently and she echoed similar thoughts where it feels like an impossible situation because on the one hand, I don't want to be in a situation where I'm marrying someone I've never met, even once but at the same time, I don't want to lower my standards, I don't want to have to compromise because the kinds of guys that attracts are guys that aren't the guys you want being your husband or you're the father of your children. Right? And that's something that I really want to emphasize to young girls who are looking to get married. It is not worth it. It's not worth sacrificing who you are. It's not worth sacrificing the pleasure of Allah (sw) for anything in this dunya and it is absolutely painful and it is absolutely difficult but Allah (swt) will open up doors for you but settling for someone who's not on the same page as you dedn wise. You know, value-wise it's opening the door to heartbreak down the line.
Commercial Break 17:53
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Farhat Amin 18:14
We need to think further down the line that we're so, used to getting instant gratification and that's what we're told we should do but we don't act based on our heart and Allah’s given us a mind and I guess that's what so, important to stop and think, what am I doing? If I'm thinking of dating or getting a boyfriend or thinking that somehow that is a better option. When in UK people who are choosing that option, the divorce rate in the UK is 50% basically of marriages in the UK end in divorce and that's them choosing, fallen in love, dated had the whole romance and then got married but then 50% of them are getting divorced and that has to say something about whether this method is working or not.
Heera Hashmi 19:14
Yeah, absolutely. I agree completely. In the US, the divorce rate is a little bit higher than 50%, which means that the majority of couples are divorcing, and a minority of them are due to reasons like abuse and things like that. But the majority cite irreconcilable differences as the reason for divorce. And, you know, when we as Muslims in the West we say that, Islamic guidelines are outdated and backward. Where's the evidence that the system today is working, we're offered this glitzy glamorous idea of dating, and then the marriage itself was very toxic. It's not even from a place of trying to please Allah. So, where is the win there, right?
Farhat Amin 20:06
Yeah, exactly and I think this expectation one of the whole facades of dating is that people are just presenting, like the best version of themselves as in looks, how honest and real are people being like, you don't get to see what life would be like, if you were genuinely living with someone or you get to see the version and it's like the photos that they're sending you, of course, they’re Face Tuned and photoshopped and I think one of the things that also is driving, what you're saying about how girls will change. I've noticed that girls who dress very immodestly to get the attention of guys, that's how you get their attention but then the thing is that where a guy's getting this view of women and as we know, there's an epidemic of pornography addiction in Western society. It's interesting, it's not spoken about that much. But when men and young boys are watching pornography and that's Muslim and non-Muslim, when they're watching this stuff their view of what a woman should look like, and what a young girl should look like, and what will attract and is drastically affected by pornography.
Heera Hashmi 21:31
Yeah, the statistics are kind of harrowing. I think if I remember correctly, it's almost three-quarters of young men. So, the ages 18 to 25, visit a porn site at least once a month and it's heartbreaking to see that because it causes a detriment to intimacy, and just the ability to connect with a real person. When you have these expectations. I mean, these are actors, what you're seeing is not real. It's all acting. It's an exaggeration, the women themselves are heavily made-up, plastic surgery and then you look at women today, and the majority of women do not look like that. Right.
So, when you're approaching dating in marriage, with these false expectations, obviously, you will be disappointed. Love is not the glitzy glamorous vision that you see anywhere. And, you know, people leave their relationships because it doesn't meet these high expectations, but those high expectations, unrealistic, rather, right. Having expectations is not a bad thing, but these unrealistic expectations. I mean, what did we anticipate what happened otherwise, right? We need to look at the roots of these high expectations, we need to look at why we are approaching marriage with this idea of we need to know the person completely and we need to have had this relationship with them before we can commit and this is why I love the beauty in Islam, where it's if you want to be with a woman, if you want to be with a man, you have to be willing to commit 100% you don't get to enjoy the intimacy, you don't get to enjoy the companionship unless you're willing to be there. Completely 100%.
Farhat Amin 23:22
Yeah, and this is it. Because what really is the reality of dating, you're going, you're allowing your lust to drive your actions that's the bottom line and as Muslims we don't allow our instincts, that's not how we live, we don't live based on our instincts are driving us and are in control of us. That you know, when there's the Hadith I'm paraphrasing but the life of this world for non-Muslims like Jannah because they can do whatever they want. But for Muslims, it's like a jail where we've got these bars and the bars are the laws of Allah. So, as Muslims we control ourselves and so when it comes to love, it's not lust. It's a pure love that Allah described. So, can a Muslima to be honest, can they fall in love before marriage? Is that possible?
Heera Hashmi 24:52
So, people will point to, you know, examples of our history. I guess I could say. But at the same time, is that love because the way that I understand it is if you're following as you said, you can't truly know someone unless you live with them and spend time with them. And as a Muslim, you know, there's, there's inherently a certain limit to how much you can, a potential spouse before you get married. Kind of prevents you from feeling that deep love, like the love that I see in my parents, after being married for pretty much a quarter of a decade. That kind of love is not going to be there.
You know, if you've only talked a few times, especially being supervised lust, yes. affection? Yes. Maybe even liking? Yes. But we really need to think about what do we mean by love? And ask ourselves, why has Allah put such stringent guidelines on gender interaction, and I used to be a little bit not confused but I would kind of look at that and be like, oh my God, how is it possible that I'm going to meet a guy and get to know him and then agree to marry him when I don't feel that affection but now being on the other side of that and tasting the sweetness of patience and the sweetness of having waited. Now, I understand why that's there.
Farhat Amin 26:18
Yeah, this is it but Allah has the wisdom, like, trusting Allah’s wisdom that Allah really does know best when it comes to this situation. That and it's interesting you have women regretting that they slept with So, many men, I've read, famous celebrities saying that they wish...... I think it was Justin Bieber, actually, I was listening to a video on YouTube and it was Justin Bieber saying I wish I had not slept with so, many people because he regretted it and there's a really interesting book called Return to Modesty by Wendy Shalit. And again, she's a Jewish lady and again, she wasn't particularly religious but she disliked the whole atmosphere at university where she studied, because it was expected that she would just jump into bed with multiple men and she goes, "I didn't want to do that." And everyone thought she was so weird and odd, for saying, "No, I don't want to do this". and she said her friends were saying, "we don't want to do this", but we're going to be lonely, who wants to be lonely, you know, you have to give something if you want something.
So, this idea of waiting or having to stay pure, that's what Allah wants from us. And, like you said, only once you get married, do you realize, Oh, right I get it. Why? And, and you couldn't imagine the thought of the opposite. It's just disgusting, really? Isn't it? You think? How can people do that? It must, what must it do to their heads and what does it do to their self-worth?
Heera Hashmi 28:01
Yeah, and it's against our nature to be giving our bodies, ourselves to strangers and it's interesting that you bring that up because people parrot this idea of, we're a free society. Now, we can do whatever we want. Women have the choice, but when you look on the ground, a lot of women do not want that but they feel pressured and so, can we really call that a choice? You know, when they feel like they have to be willing to give up themselves, just for one night of intimacy with someone that they don't even know. Can you even call that intimacy?
Farhat Amin 28:39
Yeah, exactly. It's called a one-night stand for a reason. And, when you think about... we could talk about how the number of rapes that happen during dates, the whole idea of a date, when those things happen it's so, difficult to prosecute the rapist because it was obscure and who do you believe?, you don't know who's telling the truth, but the majority the time the rapist gets away with it . These cases are the ones the victim does not get justice and so, Allah warns us against this and that's why there are like you said, the stringent rules, they're to protect us. Not control us, not oppress us the way that it's presented, that somehow, we're not getting our agency because we're not but Allah doesn't allow us to have multiple partners. That's not the way to look at it. We need to think when Allah gives us rules, they are for our own benefit, even if we can't see the wisdom of them.
Heera Hashmi 29:48
Absolutely. You know, this idea, this assumption that any kind of rule or any kind of discipline is oppressive. We have to understand what freedom is if freedom is just following your whims ... You're not free, either you're a slave to Allah, or you're a servant to your desires, right. And your desires that change every day, they change with the winds of time, and you end up in heartbreak, in situations that you would rather avoid. Right. So, this whole idea of being free in the first place is a little bit contentious, because again, you're not free, you're still going to be submitting to something you're still going to be submitting to most likely your own desires. Right?
Farhat Amin 30:32
Yeah. And it's interesting, again, just the whole industry that is telling us to do, to date, and do you know, let's call a spade a spade. A lot of it is to make money, you know, it is an industry. So, whether it's the nightclub industry, the alcohol industry, the, you know, the whole, you know, Valentine's Day industry, when, you know, it makes a lot of money. And so, you do think, well, who is benefiting from us doing this, if women, you know, are not gaining happiness through this if couples are getting divorced at the end of this? Who’s benefiting? It's definitely not the individuals, it's not society because every divorce, involves heartbreak then there are children, it causes a lot of turmoil for families.
So, again, it's so interesting that since the sexual revolution of the 60s, I've spoken about previously, the rise in pornography, the rise in violence against women, the rise in eating disorders is increased? It's interesting that they both kind of go on the same trajectory and you have to question why. It's not a coincidence that the well-being of women has not improved since the sexual revolution. But that's for another podcast. So, what do you think of the apps that brand themselves as Halal dating apps? Have you come across them?
Heera Hashmi 32:14
I know people who have used them. And by and large, they have not been successful. The people that I've seen using them, it's a last resort. So, the way that I understand these apps is that it's a short-term solution to a deeper problem and they essentially just capture Western dating practices but add a little bit of an Islamic flavor because these apps, you know, you have your picture on there, you have your height, your weight and very super special interests about yourself and it's sad, that's a problem. A lot of people on these apps are just looking for a quick physical relationship, they're not looking for anything more, you're kind of putting yourself on there just like as a product to be consumed. But at the same time, you mentioned earlier, a lot of people feel like what's the alternative. Right? Especially if you're a revert or if you're in a small community, where there's not a lot of Muslims? What can you do to get to know other Muslims, Right? But I do think that we can talk about that. But yeah, Halal dating apps? I am not fond of them for the reasons that I mentioned.
Farhat Amin 33:38
Yeah, that seems to be the consensus when I have spoken to sisters that the apps are not Islamic, they've just branded themselves, they found that there's a market. Companies always say, when you're thinking of a business idea, find a niche, you know, niche down and then find a product that you know, there's a need but no one is selling it. That's the best kind of product you can have and that's what it looks like to me and when I see the figures of 60,000 marriages because of this app, I think, yeah, I'd like to see the data on that. Can you share with us some facts, please? Because it just seems bizarre because everyone else says it definitely doesn't come across as Islamic. So, then, okay, So, for example, Islamic institutions, how could they facilitate single Muslims who want to get married? What could they be doing?
Heera Hashmi 34:31
This is a good question. There's a couple of institutions here, like seminaries that have been trying, especially during the pandemic, where people aren't, you know, we're not going to conferences or any kind of Muslim event. And they've been online events where they're giving like a series of talks on the Prophet (saw) marriages and having breakout sessions with different people and there's a TA overlooking a conversation and people can kind of get to know each other and then if you're interested in someone you can message the teacher and say, "Hey, I'm interested in so." It's a very blunt force method but I think there is something to be said about facilitating an organic kind of network and a lot of other environments and I say this very hesitantly, I know there are issues there. But I do think there's a lot of potential in those kinds of environments where programs are kind of just being revolving around the masjid and revolving around Allah.
So, that's how I met my husband, I met him through a person that I knew at a program. So, we all need to develop this mindset of the community, So, keeping an eye out for one another and knowing Oh, this person's looking. I know someone who knows someone who's also looking and also these institutions, I think I really do think there's potential for them to do that....... to kind of events that can facilitate this. Because you'd rather have it be there under the supervision of people who are knowledgeable then very randomly in some university. Right. So, I think, some people cringe at it, they think it's a little cheesy or a little tacky but I do think it's preferable to dating apps to any kind of other events out of movie theater or whatever, right?
Farhat Amin 36:46
So, are there any books that you recommend listeners reading prior to getting married or even after marriage is anything good that you read?
Heera Hashmi 36:59
So, this is a bit of a tangent, I really recommended premarital counseling.
Farhat Amin 37:05
Oh, okay.
Heera Hashmi 37:06
With a Muslim, like someone who's not Muslim, specifically, because non-Muslims usually don't understand our cultural context enough to be able to give advice on specific issues. So, someone who's trained in both psychology and therapy and has somewhat of a background in the Islamic sciences. So, that's one thing I really recommend. But yeah, in terms of books, I read the Muslim Marriage Guide by Ruqaiyyah Maqsood and the Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by Gottman I forgot his first name and they were helpful the seven principles one it's written by a non-Muslim but he actually studied divorces and did research around why people get divorced and what are issues that cause it.
So, I found it helpful. It's interesting even if he's not Muslim, there's a lot in there about communication and about a lot of these everyday things putting an effort and understanding one's love languages and all that. And then of course, the Muslim marriage guide that takes specifically an Islamic perspective. So, everything from understanding our roles as a husband and wife as Muslims to family to some fiqh and kind of approaching it that way. So, that's also another good book I would recommend.
Farhat Amin 38:47
Okay, inshallah. So, traversingtradition.com do you write for that as well as taking part in marketing.
Heera Hashmi 39:05
Yeah, I've written a few articles on bioethics and a couple of book reviews. So, I write when I can but if anyone's interested in submitting as well or just getting involved, feel free to reach out. This is a project I'm very passionate about and Inshallah is very open to feedback and kind of critique.
Farhat Amin 39:28
Alhamdulillah, Jazakallah, Inshallah. Hopefully, we'll get to speak again soon Inshallah.
Heera Hashmi 39:35
Yeah, Jazalallah Khairen for having me on. It was very nice to meet you.
Farhat Amin 39:39
Alhamdulillah. Okay then Assalamu Alaikum.
Heera Hashmi 39:41
Wa Alaikum Assalam.